Discovery Home & Health

A question for all - my eating is really erratic - I cannot wait to eat when I am hungry I eat immediately i.e. only meat or fruit and those flipping nuts! Then I stop and perhaps will not eat again that day just shakes. Cannot seem to get into a routine - has anyone else experienced this. In short am not really following maintenance to the letter. But if I did i.e. get potatoes back this week I know from past experience carbs and me do not mix!

Have been told that a lady who lost a great deal of weight has now very fast gain back 4 stone whilst on maintenance! Makes you want to weep really I feel so wretched for her. But this just reinforces the need to listen to our own minds and bodies as it such an individual issue. So am I really wise or mad - answers please.

Love Helen

PS the lady on maintenance fell off having got trigger foods back!
Hence I do not want to bring them back or only on special occasions.

Helen, I agree this is much trickier than what we all thought when we were in abstinence. The fact that you're not following maintenance to the letter means that intuitively you sense that the solution to achieving a successful maintenance for you is not black and white and you need to make it more appropriate for yourself.

I think like everything in life we have to step out of the allocated box to find out what really works for us, what is realistically applicable and successful long term. The problem is that everything costs, the bigger the reward, the bigger the cost and the cost is clearly having to accept minor setbacks in our quest to solve the problem. (in this case may be putting some weight back on before you getting the handle of how this whole thing works).

I am absolutely going through the same situation, and I am not following LL guidelines because thanks to my previous life as a professional dieter, I've tried them all, read all the books, tried all the methods and as nothing is ever wasted in life I've learned few things. Carbs, fruits, dairy, starchy vegetables are a no=go area for me. I am insulin resistant which is the case of a lot of people with weight problem, as soon as I have any form of sugary food ( the one mentioned) I am triggering an insulin reaction in my body and half an hour later when my blood sugar goes down the insulin released will trigger more cravings for sugar. The important thing to keep in mind is that once one gets to that stage (insulin reaction ) anything we've ever learned (about managing thoughts, understanding the difference between emotional and real hunger and all that) will goes out of the window because by then we're truly caught in the claws of a purely a chemical reaction.
I had a minor setback 2 days ago with red wine, I knew about the effect of the trigger foods on myself but (may be because I like wine) I completely occulted the fact that wine is absolutely lethal for me in terms of triggering a sugar reaction and paid for it the following 2 days.
My guess is that like myself and most people with a past or current weight problem, you're sugar sensitive and although nuts are quite good as a transition food (I've always used them after a sugary food day to get back on track, they maintain a good level of sugar so you don't feel too much sugar withdrawal the following day, however if you keep them going they'll work as a trigger food themselves), I think they are higher in carbs and have also a higher sugar content. Fruits can also be absolutely lethal as a trigger food to people who are sugar sensitive. Helen always if you're in doubt if certain food works as a trigger for you, ask you yourself how much of it do you eat??? if there is a type of food that you eat often chances are that you're addicted to it, and that means that each time you'll feed the addiction it'll come back with a vengeance.

On the topic of LL guidelines, one thing to keep in mind is that no one really knows how this whole weight issue really works, we're still hearing conflicting views on what is the right way to lose weight or be slim and smaller children are becoming obese more than ever before and no one has any clue how to reverse this tendency. All the nutrition and medical communities are doing is coming up with new speculations and hoping that they work.
So you've got to acknowledge your inner wisdom, that you're looking for solutions that will work for you, give yourself the time to get into a routine remember it takes 21 days of doing something for it to become a habit and find out more about the sugar content of the food you're eating, I bet you that you're sugar sensitive and that the food you eat work as a trigger for more food....
I wish you luck and believe me, I know what you're going through...


AmandadePanda
xxxx

Hello Fizzy girl, found your post extremely interesting, never thought of the idea of a certain food encompassing the feeling of a certain setting. I am also discovering the hideous face of food addiction, I've been binging for 2 days now, it started with red wine which I am not supposed to have and it has escalated from one day to the other trying to feed sugar cravings...things have been getting from bad to worse. I don't think it is really about what we know when we get to management, there also a chemical reaction related to sugar sensitivity and we just don't know how it works. I am baffled by what's happening but know that I will deal it...what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. It made me realise that actually I am not happy with my body shape as it is, otherwise I would have been more protective of it. I've always maintained that I will get back to food when I am BMI 20, due to the fact that my weight didn't budge in the last 2 weeks and also the fact that I am going on holiday soon, I decided to get off the food packs earlier (22.4) (to prevent binging on holiday...well don't have to worry about that one any more...). when we return to food the area around the rummy and the hips fill up and we get a more accurate idea of body shape. I didn't like the look of it after being on the diet for so long so it was a bit of an anti-climax. I can't handle the management bit at the moment...my expectations of how it was going to feel like were completely off the mark, I will probably be able to deal with it in time...from the moment I reintroduced food it became a main focus again in my life, may be in order to be successful at management I need to rearrange my life around non-food pleasures ad occupations, I kept thinking yesterday if only I could play golf while stuffing chocolates down my throat...I have spent my non-food day stocking up on lovely bottles of wine and booking gourmet restaurants, I saw it as preparing to enjoy life...I don't think it's the way to go, I don't know how to handle it, but I will find out in time...given time nothing is impossible...I'll just have to keep searching...
so I am going back to food packs tomorrow, thank god for this forum, I'll be able to come here and whinge how my head hurts and how the food packs taste awful and how I can't bear the sight of the water any more...phew!!! Olds days are back...

AmandadePanda
xxx

Amandapanda, thank for your post and again for the very sound advice.
Just this minute I have said goodbye to visitors having spend the day cooking, full easter lunch, and eating full easter lunch and tea and supper!!!!!! Feel my taste buds have let me down - could not taste very much. Very full but hopefully happy to get back to shakes tomorrow and Tuesday to counter-act today. Also weight creeping back on - I thought I had got away with last weekend by eating what I wanted whilst away and then shakes. BUT now feel it has all caught up with me. Interesting, if my regime of counter-balancing does not work, will have to review the situation. Get weighed on Tuesday night. Will keep you posted.

Do you intend to pig out on holiday and, if so, for how long?

Would be great to find out how long you need to be on shakes to lose the weight gained whilst off etc., I have this sinking feeling that it is going to be much harder than I thought.

Yes, I too have a real problem with sugar and those wretched nuts, but at present they stop me from bingeing on loads of other things, but really must stop them.

Helen xxx

Helen, I have no intention of piging out on holidays, I've decided to stop making food plans i.e. planning to go to this nice restaurant and looking for a specific wine etc... I have booked my holidays making food a top crietria, I think it is the wrong attitude and from now on I've decided that my food choices are going to be as safe and as restricted as I can make them until I know better...
I am going back on food packs probably for another month or whatever long it is going to take for me to lose the fat around my tummy, especially that the fact of piging out made me realised 2 things that 1/I am not really happy with my body as it.. 2/ I am so close to my top range weight that another incident of this sort and the weight loss will start looking so insignificant that my second reflexe will probably be well why bother??? I don't really understand what's going on...the only thing I know is that I am going back on the food packs because I don't seem to have any way of managing the food or even understanding what is happening in my body. I started looking into CBT again today, will probably email few people to get the feel of things, I've also ordered few books from Amazon trying to find about more about the sugar thing...I feel that I need serious counselling or understanding and I am not sure that LL councillors are up to it, no wonder that people don't keep the weight off, it would be really interesting to find out what is the (true) percentage of people who've lost the weight and kept if off...

Where there is a will, there is a way...Keep well!!!
AmandadePanda
xxx

Hello, Amandapanda, I have been reading the posts on the main thread with interest, as always.

Just to let you know the maintenance is still very unstable in that I have good and bad days, but no routine. Do not have a meal unless going out, and seem to eat nuts and more nuts. 2 shakes and protien, ie chicken, fish etc only.

I am on week 6 and have gained 3 lbs. Will be weighed tonight and am almost hoping I will have a gain which will kick start me into doing the whole thing properly.

However, I just cannot seem to control myself - feel I could binge nearly all the time, and the amount of nuts I am capable of consuming is growing by the day!!!! I do manage to drink 6 pints of water a day though. Also what is happening is that I get very hungry cooking meals for the family whereas, of course, there was no problem. Plus shopping is more difficult!

Feel you are more than right to postpone maintenance until you are mentally in the correct frame of mind. Only, thing is with me - I have not reached it!!!!! But when does one! (Sorry sound like the Queen.)

The main word is WILLPOWER you need all the willpower you can muster and a good routine, which I was in when on 3 shakes a day.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Love Helen xxx

Hi Helen, good to hear from you as always,
As I was saying in a previous post doing the programme or rather being in this frame of mind of trying to stick to abstinence (without necessarily succeeding all the time) for so long has been extremely helpful to me in understanding the importance of time spent doing something and also how important it is to keep repeating whatever it is you trying to make happen. You've got to understand we all creatures of habit, we follow routines and very often after may be 10 attempts we make a judgement about things thinking I cannot do this...it isn't how it works...you've got to built a new habit and building a new habit is going to take time, a lot of time so the best thing you can do in the meantime is going to be damage limitation, i.e. learning to build a new ways of approaching food (learning implies failing, one doesn't go without the other) without putting too much weight on...

It isn't about controlling yourself, there are 2 things going on, a chemical reaction, you're body is being given something it's been deprived of for a long time so it will want to soak up on it...because you had a very slow metabolism for a long time, once you hit the food, you sugar levels are so out of sink, and you're going to have massive cravings...
second you're suffering from a psychological reaction because you haven't established new patterns of behaviour...just think how many years you've spent doing something completely different from what you're trying to do now???.. the problem is that most people get sucked into the notion of 'oh I am failing' give up and start the downward spiral of putting the weight back on...If nuts work for you, carry on eating nuts, there are a lot worse things you could be eating....trust me! I've told you before, I always use nuts on my transition days because I think they've got enough sugar in them to keep you blood sugar stable without triggering mad cravings...honestly it has got nothing to do with willpower!!! You've got to muster the chemical (blood sugar) and the psychological (building new habits)...

I've decided not to carry on with management for 2 reasons as I mentioned, I was not happy with the way my body looked at that stage and that took the edge of the happiness I felt in the beginning, knowing myself, I don't like average and I knew I would sabotage the weight loss if I am not happy with it, the other thing I understood is that I need to get off the programme almost a little under my target weight because I realised that to learn management I will have to go through trials and tribulations and that implies putting some weight on...I need to do that without thinking, oh I blew it now, why bother???? The other thing I assumed was that it was going to be easy, it threw me how strongly I felt the urge to eat...

I've gained so much clarity and focus since I started the programme, this simply due to the fact of carrying the same thought everyday for 12 months, I didn't succeed in staying away from food for 12 months but I've tried every single day...and only now I realised I've gained clarity and focus, if I go and eat as I've done earlier this week, I switch back on because what I want is to lose the weight, before there seemed to be a lag between what I wanted to achieve and what I ended up doing...

I would suggest 2 things to you Helen, eating meat, or fish, even leaving veggies out for a while, carrots for example can trigger sugar cravings due their sugar content, I bet you one thing, you can't binge on meat especially red meat, it fills up so much..

My second suggestion is exercise, building muscles is really instrumental in helping you maintain your weight and stabilise blood sugar, I know what you said about walking your dog but honestly if maintaining the weight means that much to you you've got to investigate this aspect too...

With weight loss, especially dramatic one like ours, we lose muscle and increase our body fat because it is what happens when you're on a restricted calorie plan for so long, body metabolism slows down and go into conservation mode and our body fat proportion is likely to increase, although I've always exercise before LL, and did some Yoga throughout my body fat is as high as when I was obese...to speed up your metabolism you must decrease the amount of fatty tissue in your body and increase your muscle mass (muscle burns more calories that fat tissue) even when we are sleeping and restores your body sensitivity to insulin, i.e. stabilise your sugar sensitivity which is probably the main factor in making you feel out of control

Keep well, and let me know how you're getting on...
Love and Best wishes
AmandadePanda

I found this on the topic of sugar cravings and brain chemistry and though it might be helpful.
Individuals who crave alcohol or sugar or both have an increased need (probably inborn) for the brain chemical serotonin, dopamine and Beta endorphin. The key to gaining control over their addictive and often destructive, eating or drinking behaviour is for them to learn to balance their brain chemically by observing the effect of different foods on their mood. This approach to cravings whether alcohol, sugar or bread removes much of the judgement, the cravings becomes your body's way for trying to tell you it needs a different mix of brain chemicals that it isn't currently getting, you job is to figure out how to give your brain what it's need.
Having enough of the brain chemical serotonin is key to feeling calm and focused. Serotonin is manufactured in the brain from the amino acid Trytophan which is found in Protein. On order to for Trytophan to enter your brain from the blood stream you body requires insulin which means you need to eat some carbohydrates as well. You want just enough Insulin to do the job but not so much that you get rebound on blood sugar. If you're prone to seasonal affective disorder or other forms of depression you may need more carbohydrates than most people in order to boost your serotonin to adequate levels. One of the best ways to get what you need is to eat low fat, high complex carbohydrates, low protein snack at 4 pm or in the evening before bed. Another way to enhance Serotonin is to get outside in natural light. One of the reason people ten to lose weight in the summer is that the increased light boosts their Serotonin level and their carbohydrates cravings and intake naturally decreases.
The Brain chemical Beta endorphin has morphine-like-qualities; it is associated with euphoria and a decreased ability to feel pain. Food with a very glycemic index such as sugar and refined flour can act like an opiate in our bodies which is why they can be addictive in some individuals.
The best way to learn what works for you is to keep a food journal in which you record what you've eaten, when you ate it and how you felt at the time and afterwards. Patterns will begin to emerge which teach which food support you best and which ones send you off the deep end
This is a summarized extract from Dr Christiane Northrup book, Women's bodies, Women's wisdom

Hello Girls,

As usual most interesting and informative posts on here! Thanks Amandadepanda for your postings on the main page too relating to my questions!

I am not having a good time today. How does that happen?? one day I am fine and the next I am doom and gloom! as you know I am weaning myself off this programme and it's going ok, I mean I am only eating once a day and 2 foodpacks and 4 litres of water. I am no longer hungry as the food (at last) makes me satisfied for hours, so that is a bonus! I am still seeing my therapist which I think is a support for me, but we were talking about the food issues yesterday and the penny dropped and I was wondering if I am alone in this. I was saying how I felt so much better and that I was introducing food and was aware that oncew I had eaten, although absolutely not hungry, that the very act of eating made me want more, but that I was in control of it and so far so good. But as we talked more, it became apparent that far from being in control of food (I am in as much as I don't allow myself more once I have eaten)it still controls me as I am thinking about it ALL the time!! I thought it was ok when I was doing LL. I mean it is such a huge thing to do and to be deprived of food, well no wonder we obsess about it, but I was hoping that was just a phase - now on looking at it, I realise that I have been like this for years. My friend and I went round the world in 2001 on a whirlwind trip, and everyday I would want to know where and when we were going to eat! It was my main focus! Because I have never really looked at it before I honestly didn't notice, but I realise now that other people don't behave like that!

So this is what we are working on, but it has made me feel depressed as I don't know if it's a battle I can win. I guess only time will tell. I also have to take into account that he is a therapist and it's in his interest for me to keep going back! But it does seem as if we have struck on something I was unaware of, but did all the time.

Just wondered if you had any pearls of wisdom?!

Take care
love izzabel xx

Hi everyone,
Hope you don't mind but I thought I would join this managagement thread.
I did LL PH1 and a few weeks of PH2 and lost 4.5 stones (on top of 1.5 I lost myself albeit very slowly before staring LL) so when I went onto management I was 6 stones lighter than my heaviest.
I found the introdution of food VERY HARD. I was crap at judging potrtion sizes and within a couple of weeks I was 'giving in' to eating things other than those recommended by the programme and in the end decided to come off management, basically because of the cost and my lack of commitment. I had a couple of weeks off and went on my hols, where I have managed to gain a stone and a half of the weight back.
I felt despereately unhappy, none of my new clothes fitted anymore and no matter how hard I tried I kept pigging out, binging and just getting worse. I tried to follow my old weightwatchers diet, I tried doing 2 LL shakes and a meal for a week, nothing seemed to be 1) making me feel better or 2) giving me hope to shift the weight again and get back in my clothes.
Last week I made the decision to go back to LL and have joined as a returner doing PH2 (which is the same as last time but you pay for a month all in one go). I don't know how I will do this second time round, but have to try to be optimistic. But, from my own experience it was VERY HARD re-introducing food. The old habits do die hard. Maybe I was expecting miracles from the CBT element of the groups. Maybe additional help is whats needed?? I would love to hear others' opinions on this.
Not sure if this post has been any help to anyone, but I will keep you posted as to how it goes this time round.
TTFN
Ja9

Dear Izzabel, to answer your question, of course it is a battle you can win, you've only got to gain understanding and develop a methodology...people who become successful at things don't do it because they're stronger or luckier, they do it because they're persistent and because with time they develop a method that works for them...
There is an important point here you need to acknowledge...you don't have a problem with willpower, you may not even have a psychological problem associated with food what you're suffering from like myself and the majority of overweight people is sugar addiction...the shift you're describing from one day to another are symptoms of how the food you're eating affects your mood from one day to the next, being on food pack has regulated you blood sugar after the initial panic which was due to your body having to adjust to low levels of sugar in the early days of the programme; now that you're reintroducing food, your blood sugar is all over the place and your body want its revenge, do you see how it works?

In her book Potatoes not Prozac, Kathleen Desmaisons calls it the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde syndrome she writes
'does it seem crazy that you can be so clear one day and so desperate the next, worst you may drop from the heights to the depth in the same day, it almost as if another person was inside you. You hate to admit but you can be moody and impulsive, you want to get things done, but your attention drifts. You lose energy and get tired. You crave sugar and turns to sweets and snack food to get yourself going again. Sometimes you have no self- discipline. You often feel depressed and overwhelmed. If this is your description you may be sugar sensitive. Your body chemistry may responds to sugar and certain carbohydrates (bread, Pasta and so on) differently than others people this biochemical difference can have a huge effect on your mood and behaviour, how you feel is linked to what you eat and when you eat it.Sugar sensitivity turns a person into a Dr Jekyll, and Mr Hyde, It's like having 2 different people live in your body. From one moment to the next your fine sensitivity and openness turns into moodiness and irritability. Your confidence and creativity dry up only to be replaced by low self-esteem and hopelessness'

This is a major point LL never touched upon; that there aren't only psychological factors that make you eat but most importantly there are chemical factors attached to it and you've got to identify which are they, I read this book about 3 years and had a light bulb moment I realised why I felt I had no power over food and I realised that If I stuck to protein I was OK, Bizarrely I get extremely depressed when I have cheese on it own, I get depressed half an hour after Coffee or chocolate or cake, I have massive cravings after wine or champagne, when I drink, I binge, simple...I realised that I've had a sugar, food addiction since I was a small child and suffered from depression due to the effects of sugar since a very early age too. This is an issue every woman with a weight problem, (and man) need to look into very carefully...there is a lot more to wanting food than just emotional hunger...The whole idea is that people who are addicted to sugar lack feel-good-chemicals that are found in carbs and that when you reach out for food all you're trying to do is re-established a balance that is lacking in your body. Ask yourself does it happen that sometimes that you eat something sugary or carbs and you feel on top of the world instantly and so confident and then half an hour later you're miserable, the future looks bleak and you feel incapable of even getting through the day????..

So the idea here is to identify which food triggers the need for more food and affects your mood, in order to do so you need to keep a journal with you all the time and whenever you eat something write down what food and when and half an hour later if your mood changes write it down too this is the only way to identify which food sets you off...She also adds that people who are sugar sensitive are generally lacking vitamins and minerals such as vitamin C, Zinc and Magnesium, Chromium is very good also in keeping sugar levels quite balanced, I felt better when I started taking the vitamins but still suffered from depression and mood swing when I had sugary food.
Keep your questions coming, I would like to know what is your take on this and if you feel it applies to your situation..
Take care
xxx
AmandadePanda

Hiya ja9, it's always enlightening to find out about people's experience with food after the programme and it is great that you didn't give up and decided to go for it a second time, I really believe that this is only to get a good handle on things...please keep your comments coming...and good luck with you first week...

Love and Best wishes
xxx

Hi Amandadepanda,

Well, that was truly remarkable! I am definatly going to get a copy of that book!! I have suffered with depression all my life (as does my virtually anorexic daughter!) and have often wondered if it's a connection with food, but isn't it strange how long it can take for the old penny to drop!!?
I certainly know without a doubt that when I started on this programme I felt the most depressed and desperate I have EVER felt, and even as the weight came off it didn't cheer me up at all. I felt trapped and almost suffocated - there was nowhere to turn, to run to for comfort and it was a really unpleasant time. I remember driving home late one night in the early days and going really fast and thinking it would be sooo simple just to wreck the car - and myself! And now it does make sense that it was a chemical reaction...

In one way it is a great discovery - a liberation, but it also means that life has to become a bit harder (again) before it gets easier! Well, that's ok and I really can now see the value of a food diary. I had fish and brocolli yesterday and felt fine! Aren't we complex creatures!!?

You are amazing though as you have obviously consumed books on all these subjects and are a real font of knowledge and you are a tremendous help to all those embarking on the programme, and all the falteres! You know, sometimes when I see people having a really bad time with LL all I want to do is tell them to stop doing it and find something else (only because thats what I wanted to do!) but I never do, because I see that you and the others who have an incredibly positive outlook all really encourage them to carry on, and then the turn around happens!

I will plod on and find my way in this wilderness! I am glad to have the opportunity to attack it from a slimmer perspective than I have been able to before - a bit of leeway for the experiment! So I can't regret doing LL but I do wish they were more open and honest about what they actually deliver, but then I guess it is all about money in the end.

Thanks again Amandadepanda, sure I will be back for more pearls of wisdom! You are a Guru!

love and best wishes
izzy xxxx

Izzabel so glad you found the info useful, the whole thing dawned on me because my whole family on both sides are a bit whoo-whoo in the head, lovely people but quite unstable, quite reactive, most of them atlhoguh quite successful have a low self esteem and feel victimised quite easily...all of them love their food but it goes beyond that...my mother is addicted to fruits, and she was telling me earlier that when the fruit basket in her kitchen is empty she feels quite depressed and feels the urge to go get some, me on the other love wine, I use to say that there isn't such a thing as a good meal without a glass of wine (more like half a bottle)and it is all about sugar...good luck...you will find the book truly enlightening..
Love and Best wishes
xxx

Amandapanda, What can I say, you are so very knowledgable, I can only echo Izzy's sentiments.

Well I was weighed at LL and have gained another 4 lbs totalling 7 since commencing maintenance. Wanted to stay on the foodpacks but was told to carry on and eat plus 1 foodpack. I am struggling and my clothes are getting tighter!!!!

Went out for lunch today - not planned - and enjoyed a tuna salad plus a child's ice lolly! Really wanted a large ice-cream.

I will re-read the last few posts again and answer in more detail but just felt the need to say THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!

Love Helen xxx